Legislature(1997 - 1998)
01/20/1998 03:30 PM Senate STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE STATE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE
January 20, 1998
3:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Lyda Green, Chairman
Senator Jerry Ward, Vice-Chairman
Senator Jerry Mackie
Senator Mike Miller
Senator Jim Duncan
MEMBERS ABSENT
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 222
"An Act naming the Robert B. Atwood Building."
- MOVED CSSB 222(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
SENATE BILL NO. 214
"An Act relating to the possession of a concealed deadly weapon by
peace officers and chief administrative officers of local police
departments; to the definition of police officer as it is defined
for police standards; and providing for an effective date."
- HEAD AND HELD CSSB 214(STA)
SENATE BILL NO. 209
"An Act relating to the Task Force on Privatization; and providing
for an effective date."
- MOVED SB 209 OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
No previous action to record.
WITNESS REGISTER
Mr. Keith Gerkin
Dept. of Administration
PO Box 110201
Juneau, AK 99801
Position Statement: Commented on SB 222
Mr. Victor Fisher
PO Box 201384
Anchorage, AK 99520
Position Statement: Supported SB 222
Mr. Doug North
4101 University Drive
Anchorage, AK 99508
Position Statement: Supported SB 222
Ms. Katie Hurley
PO Box 870157
Wasilla, AK 99687
Position Statement: Supported SB 222
Mr. Leonard Abel
326 4th Street #1011
Juneau, AK 99801
Position Statement: Commented on SB 214
Ms. Lauree Hugonin
Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault
130 Seward Street #501
Juneau, AK 99801
Position Statement: Commented on SB 214
Mr. Dean Guaneli
Dept. of Law
PO Box 110300
Juneau, AK 99801
Position Statement: Commented on SB 214
Ms. Jayne Andreen
Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault
PO Box 111200
Juneau, AK 99801
Position Statement: Commented on SB 214
Mr. Del Smith
Dept. of Public Safety
450 Whittier Street
Juneau, AK 99801
Position Statement: Commented on SB 214
Mr. Mike McMullen
Dept. of Administration, Div. of Personnel
PO Box 110201
Juneau, AK 99801
Position Statement: Commented on SB 209
Ms. Pam LaBolle
Alaska State Chamber of Commerce
217 2nd Street
Juneau, AK 99801
Position Statement: Supported SB 209
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-1, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN GREEN called the Senate State Affairs Committee to order
at 3:37 p.m., and noted all members present.
SB 222 - NAMING ATWOOD BLDG IN ANCHORAGE
SENATOR GREEN brought up SB 222 as the first order of business.
An amendment was proposed to SB 222 and moved by Senator Ward.
There was no objection and the bill was amended.
SENATOR KELLY, prime sponsor of the bill, explained the bill would
name the newly acquired state office building in Anchorage after
Mr. Robert B. Atwood, a 61-year resident of Alaska. He acknowledged
Mr. Atwood as an entrepreneur who was involved in most of the
distinguishing events in the state during the 20th century. He
published the Anchorage times and was a pioneer of the oil industry
and an advocate for education and statehood. He chaired the Alaska
Statehood Committee and was a tireless visionary, said Senator
Kelly. He went on to say Mr. Atwood was a leader and humanitarian
and improved Alaska for us all. He would like to see him remembered
by future generations.
SENATOR KELLY explained the amendment resolved a conflict with the
lease agreement signed that allowed the Bank of America to retain
its name on the building until 2002. He stated he did not want to
pressure Bank of America and would be happy to name the building
after 2002. However, the new language allows the possibility of a
compromise between the State and the Bank of America before that
time. He mentioned that the motivation behind the bill came from
Representative John Cowdry and it was his intention that this bill
reside in committee until Representative Cowdry's bill came from
the house. Representative Cowdry's bill would then be the vehicle
for the name change.
SENATOR WARD thanked Senator Kelly for the bill and cited Mr.
Atwood as his personal motivation behind running for office. He
then made a motion to move the bill from committee with individual
recommendations.
SENATOR GREEN mentioned there were people on line wishing to
testify and asked he hold his motion.
SENATOR WARD agreed.
MS. KATIE HURLEY testified from Mat-Su. She endorsed Mr. Atwood as
a visionary and advocate for Statehood. She applauded his tireless
work in the face of adversity and cited his strong support as the
key to victory in the 1946 vote on Statehood. Ms. Hurley credited
Mr. Atwood as a proud supporter of the Alaska Constitution and a
great leader. She believes it would be fitting for his name to be
honored.
MR. VICTOR FISHER from Anchorage agreed with Ms. Hurley, speaking
on behalf of three living delegates to the Alaska Constitutional
Convention. He echoed her testimony to the character and dedication
of Mr. Atwood and expressed appreciation to Senator Kelly and
Representative Cowdry for introducing the bill.
MR. DOUG NORTH, from Anchorage representing Alaska Pacific
University, stated that Mr. Atwood was also a friend of private-hire education,
trustee. He attested to Mr. Atwood's strong character and lifelong
vitality. He concluded his testimony saying he was pleased to
endorse the bill.
MR. KEITH GERKIN, representing the Department of Administration
(DOA) stated that the amendment adopted satisfied his previous
concerns. He clarified that the lease expiration date was March 31,
2002.
Number 155
SENATOR WARD repeated his motion to move SB 222 out of committee
with individual recommendations.
SENATOR GREEN noted no objection and the bill moved with individual
recommendations and an accompanying fiscal note.
SB 214 - PEACE OFFICERS/ CONCEALED WEAPONS
MS. PORTIA PARKER, staff to Senator Miller, presented SB 214. She
said the bill makes two changes to recently enacted SB 141. She
explained the reason for the bill was to address a problem
unintentionally created by a last-minute amendment to the bill last
session. The bill as-is inadvertently limits the ability of a peace
officer to carry a concealed weapon while on duty in their first
year of service. This bill is a result of cooperation with the
Alaska Peace Officers Association and allows officers and certain
administrative officers to carry a concealed weapon while on or off
the job without having to obtain a state permit.
MR. LEONARD ABEL identified himself as a pro-gun member of the NRA
and a concealed carry permittee as well as a Ph.D. in clinical
psychology and the Community Mental Health Services Program
Administrator for the Division of Mental Health and Developmental
Disabilities. He stated he had worked with Representative James'
staff on the original bill, especially in relation to mental health
issues. He said now the Department of Public Safety (DPS) has the
ability to deny a permit to a person who had a serious mental
illness, whether they had been committed of not. To invoke this,
the person would have been brought to the attention of the
department. So far, he said, only one person has been denied a
permit by this procedure. He explained that by changing Section 12
in SB 141, this requirement would be dropped and only people who
have been committed could be denied. He believes there are people
out there who have not been committed who should not carry
concealed weapons. This is his main concern and he believes it
could be rectified by a return to the original language of the
bill. He does not believe it is overly restrictive as it requires
an illness that substantially impairs a persons actions or
perceptions.
SENATOR MACKIE wondered how Mr. Abel proposed the issuers of the
permits would determine a person's mental illness. He asked how
this could be accomplished without the infringement of a person's
civil liberties.
Number 261
MR. ABEL said court action records could be obtained or other
information may surface.
SENATOR MACKIE asked again if someone has never been officially
diagnosed, who would decide if a permit should be issued.
MR. ABEL replied a person denied can appeal and any allegations
could be checked out.
SENATOR MACKIE asked if anyone off the street could offer an
opinion that would lead to a denial.
MR. ABEL suggested that it has only happened once in 7,500 permits
and seems the appropriate thing to do.
SENATOR MACKIE expressed discomfort with vague definitions but
agreed with the idea. He wondered if the vague wording might cause
legal or constitutional problems.
MR. ABEL replied that with the change there might be more control
available when the situation arose.
SENATOR GREEN appreciated Mr. Abel's attempt to balance the issues
at stake. She stated that the scope of the bill was limited to a
fix of SB 141 and she planned it would stay that way.
SENATOR DUNCAN commented that he thought Mr. Abel's testimony was
important and he was willing to offer an amendment to broaden the
bill's scope. He moved his amendment which he explained addressed
the concerns regarding mental illness, indicted felons, and
domestic violence facilities.
There was objection to the amendment and it was held for
discussion.
Lauree Hugonin, Executive Director of the Alaska Network on
Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault (ANDVSA) realized this was
targeted to the law enforcement problem, but hoped it could be
broadened to include ANDVSA's concerns. Her first concern regarded
misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence. She said these will not be
covered under SB 141, thus not applicable to the prohibition
against applying for a permit. Her second concern was court orders
- certain protective orders do not fall under the federal
definition which would keep violators of these kind of orders from
possessing handguns. She expressed a third concern about facilities
providing services to victims of domestic violence. She said the
difference between the state and federal definitions of domestic
violence misdemeanors has to do with elements of the crime. Federal
domestic violence misdemeanors require the use of force or the
threatened use of a deadly weapon by people in certain types of
relationships. The definitions restrict the crimes that would be
covered and ANDVSA believes offenders of these crimes should not be
allowed to obtain a concealed carry permit. She said this was the
case prior to SB 141. She added that all court orders will not be
covered, only those with a specific finding prohibiting domestic
violence. Her last concern regarded domestic violence shelters. She
spoke to an amendment prohibiting carrying concealed weapons in
domestic violence shelters, saying all programs are not shelters
and therefore all are not covered and should be. She stated her
concerns were voiced in order of priority.
SENATOR DUNCAN said he believed his amendment would address most of
the concerns of ANDVSA.
MR. DEAN GUANELI, representing the Department of Law (DOL) spoke to
the concerns of prosecutors relating to those people charged with
felony crimes attempting to obtain a concealed carry permit. He
agreed with Senator Taylor that theoretically good judges would
impose restrictions on carrying firearms in many cases. However, he
believes that judges might not necessarily do this unless the
alleged crime involved a weapon. He suggested that theory does not
mirror practice. DOL thinks this restriction is important and is
sufficiently narrow.
SENATOR MILLER remarked that it seems we are going in a direction
that assumes guilt until innocence is proven and he has a problem
with this.
MR. GUANELI understood this concern but says the courts currently
lock people up until trial when the evidence warrants it and thinks
it is not much more to deny them concealed weapons.
SENATOR MILLER wanted to know if these people could openly carry a
weapon.
MR. GUANELI affirmed they could, unless restricted by a judge.
SENATOR MACKIE wondered if this applied to any type of felony.
MR. GUANELI said as it is, yes, but it could be limited to certain
types of offenses.
SENATOR WARD asked how many judges fail to impose restrictions. He
added that he would like those judges' names.
MR. GUANELI was unsure, he said he would get the information but
estimated it to be in the hundreds.
TAPE 98-1 SIDE B
Number 001
SENATOR GREEN asked if their was a prohibition for indicted felons
in federal law.
MR. GUANELI thought so, prohibiting the purchase of a firearm.
SENATOR GREEN believed the prohibition covered purchase or
possession, so this was unnecessary at the state level.
MR. GUANELI said if that was the case, it was unnecessary. He added
as clarification he did not believe the prohibition applied to
indicted felons, only convicted felons.
MR. GUANELI restated his previous point that a judge may not impose
a weapons restriction on a person indicted, unless the crime
involved a weapon.
SENATOR GREEN interjected that we all know these people don't get
permits in the first place. She said she had no problem saying
criminals should not carry weapons.
JAYNE ANDREEN, Director of the Council on Domestic Violence and
Sexual Assault, agreed with Lauree Houginin's testimony and added
that the State of Alaska adopted the Domestic Violence Prevention
and Victim Protection Act of 1996. She said this is a model code on
domestic violence from a national level. It is used across the
nation to evaluate states' progress. She stated an expert in the
field has said Alaska has one of the most comprehensive bodies of
statute in the country. She repeated Ms. Houginin's point about the
difference in state and federal misdemeanor standards and urged the
committee to look at the proposed amendment which, in her opinion,
is vitally important to continue protecting victims in Alaska.
DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner of the Department of Public Safety
(DPS), administers the concealed handgun permit program. He has
worked with staff on the law enforcement problem in the past. He
says the current problem may affect 100 people at any given time
and is affecting eight people in Juneau at this time. He would like
to see this bill passed in a timely manner to address this concern
and prevent future problems for law enforcement. He shared concerns
about domestic violence shelters as previously expressed but stated
SB 214 does correct his main concern.
SENATOR MACKIE repeated his question about how a determination
might be made that a person is mentally ill.
MR. SMITH said in this one case where a permit was denied,
information was provided by a person who knew the applicant. He
said staff cannot determine mental illness at the permit counter
but would like to reserve the right to use discretion.
SENATOR MACKIE asked if discretion would be used like police
officers on the street employ.
MR. SMITH replied that his concern was if the department had not
received this information, this person would have gotten a permit.
He said the department does contact local police departments prior
to issuing a permit but application of the federal standard would
have not allowed them to deny this person a permit.
SENATOR MACKIE agreed with this but expressed concern with the
possibility of infringement of rights due to another person's
personal agenda.
MR. SMITH reminded the committee that a person dissatisfied with
the denial of a permit can make a complaint and the department
would investigate the source. He said they are not being arbitrary
denying people permits.
SENATOR WARD asked if this person denied a permit could carry
openly.
MR. SMITH said as far as he knows, yes.
SENATOR WARD repeated his question, saying even though the
department received information about this person, he was not
adjudicated and could carry openly then and now.
MR. SMITH agreed that he had not been adjudicated and could carry
openly then and now.
MS. PORTIA PARKER returned to say it was her understanding that
federal law prohibited anyone under felony indictment from
purchasing or possessing a firearm. She stated that with the
current definition of mental illness there would be no prohibition
against a person carrying a weapon. She added that under the law
two class A misdemeanors in a six-year period would disallow a
person from being eligible for a concealed carry permit. She said
it was a conscious decision by the bill sponsor to omit a
prohibition on carrying concealed weapons on private property and
they would be opposed to an amendment expanding a prohibition to
private property.
SENATOR MILLER introduced the committee substitute and Ms. Parker
explained the changes as a suggestion from the bill drafter,
changing local to municipal and clarifying the type of law
enforcement administrative officers to whom the bill would apply.
SENATOR DUNCAN reminded the committee of his amendment but held his
motion at this time.
SENATOR WARD moved the adoption of CSSB 214(STA). He stated perhaps
he and Senator Duncan could work jointly on other issues proposed
in another piece of legislation.
SENATOR MACKIE asked if the amendment was drafted correctly to the
bill. He agreed that section seven of the amendment regarding
mental health should be addressed, due to Mr. Abel's testimony.
SENATOR GREEN repeated that she would like to have people deal with
other concerns in separate legislation. She said this bill is to
make a correction to the previous bill as it relates to peace
officers.
SENATOR WARD offered his belief that adjudication is necessary
before a person's right to bear arms is taken away. He would like
better definition of this issue.
SENATOR DUNCAN expressed to the committee the seriousness of his
amendment and believed the testimony of the experts in law
enforcement and domestic violence should be addressed immediately.
He feared if they were not, they may never reach discussion again.
He said he would like clarification on the federal law regarding
purchase or purchase and possession of firearms and believes the
committee should err on the side of safety. He expressed confidence
in the people working with victims of domestic violence and
validated their concerns regarding domestic violence facilities. He
recounted that there had been lengthy discussion regarding the
difference between carrying openly and carrying concealed and in
his view it was a major difference. He asked the committee to
divide the amendment into four parts: part one being subsection 7
regarding mental illness; part two regarding a person charged with
a felony; part three dealing with the crimes of domestic violence
and stalking and the fourth part dealing with the facilities
providing services to victims of domestic violence. He found these
four topics important enough to merit separate rulings by the
committee. He moved the division of the amendment.
SENATOR WARD objected, roll was taken and the motion failed four to
one.
SENATOR DUNCAN appreciated the vote on division of the amendment
and renewed his motion to move the entire amendment.
SENATOR MACKIE said he would vote no on the amendment, agreeing
with Senator Duncan on some points but saying it was crucial to
address the law enforcement problem immediately.
Roll was taken and the amendment failed four to one.
SENATOR WARD moved the bill be passed out of committee with
individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal note.
Without objection, the bill was moved.
SB 209 - TASK FORCE ON PRIVATIZATION
SENATOR WARD, prime sponsor of SB 209, explained that this was the
exact same bill that appeared before the legislature last year,
just with the time frame reduced by one year. He said the Governor
had vetoed the bill and everyone had heard the same sponsor
statement and bill last year.
MR. MIKE MCMULLEN, representing the Department of Administration,
Division of Personnel, agreed that the concept of the new bill was
the same and so was the position of the division. They still have
concerns regarding the requirements of the state collective
bargaining agreements. He said the agreements contain requirements
for formal feasibility studies before any layoffs of bargaining
unit members. He quoted a projected cost of $20,000 - $50,000 per
study and said they take some time to conduct. He said the bill's
time line would make the affected agencies lag behind legislative
changes. He said the task force findings and the feasibility
studies might not agree and it would be particularly problematic if
the legislative changes precede the findings of the feasibility
studies. He hoped the committee would perhaps take another approach
and quoted the Governor's veto message saying, "the Administration
stands ready to cooperate and provide available information to any
committee or task force legislative leadership may appoint to
review possible privatization opportunities."
PAM LABOLLE, President of the Alaska State Chamber of Commerce said
the Chamber supports the bill as one of their top priorities. She
feels business supports the state and the state should support
business. She said they believe there are many opportunities within
government for many new ways of doing business. She informed the
committee that Mr. Craig Holt, nationally recognized speaker on
"right sizing" government was going to be available later in the
week. She said the Chamber has worked with Mr. Holt in the past and
he educated them about privatization opportunities. She listed some
advantages of competition, including reduced cost and high quality
goods and services.
SENATOR DUNCAN asked if after the seminars and training the State
Chamber had, she thought it would be an easy job to determine which
areas might be privatized.
MS. LABOLLE responded that it would not be easy but some difficult
jobs are the ones worth doing. She said it is a good piece of
legislation which identifies a few departments in order to take an
initial look at the possible opportunities.
SENATOR DUNCAN asked if she had looked at this year's bill.
MS. LABOLLE admitted she had not.
SENATOR DUNCAN explained he asked because he believes this to be a
complex issue where it will be difficult to determine which
departments might lend themselves to privatization and review the
procedures involved. He said this bill does not look at a few
departments, this bill indicates all departments will be reviewed
and they will be reviewed by November 15th, 1998. He said he is not
speaking against the legislation but, in his opinion, this seems to
be too much too soon. He asked Ms. LaBolle if it seemed possible to
meet this deadline and do a good job.
MS. LABOLLE replied that the task force could identify objectives,
much like was done by the Long Range Financial Planning Task Force
in three or four months.
TAPE 98-2 SIDE A
Number 001
SENATOR DUNCAN asked how much of that was adopted. He went on to
say he thinks this may be more complex than what was tackled by the
Long Range Planning Task Force. He believes there may be legal
constraints due to contractual agreements with unions and
competitive bidding. He asked her opinion on whether it could be
done in a four month period.
MS. LABOLLE said it was unfortunate that the bill was vetoed last
year or they would have had an additional year to do this. She said
it must start somewhere as it is so important. She said state
government is growing while the private sector shrinks and business
supports the state and must increase.
SENATOR DUNCAN did not disagree with supporting the private sector
but took exception to the statement that the government has grown
while the private sector has been shrinking. He said the government
has also been shrinking and there were figures to back that up. He
added he did not think Senator Miller and others with their five
year plan would be happy with her saying government has grown
during their leadership. He stated perhaps the legislation should
be pared down so it could be done right. He thinks this may be
biting off more than anyone can chew and perhaps it was meant for
failure. He said if the sponsor really wanted to get something
done, maybe a smaller start would be better.
SENATOR WARD moved the bill out of committee with individual
recommendations and accompanying fiscal notes.
SENATOR DUNCAN objected. Roll was called and the bill passed out
with a three to one vote.
The meeting was adjourned at 5:15 p.m.
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